Remember when, not so long ago, SxS boosters derided P2 as a reflection of the past, based on an obsolete card format (PCCard, or PCMCIA, which stands for People Can’t Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms)? Glass houses, meet stones: looks like SxS, which fits in Expresscard34 slots, is also too backward-looking for the new low-end and midrange MBPs.
So what now? SD is the solid-state format of the future (or at least of today)? Should we be looking to Duel Systems to make an SD slot adapter for our SxS cards?
Then, of course, when we need to read P2 cards, we plug the P2 adapter into the SxS adapter into the SD slot… making the new MacBook Pros the turduckens of the data-capture world!
It makes no sense Adam, once again they are dumping todays technology and moving on WAY before it’s time to.
I have asked for people’s opinions on my blog and started a poll.
http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/06/08/apple-why-15-mbp-loses-its-express-card-slot-and-gainsan-sd-card-slot/
Posted by Philip Bloom on 06/08 at 02:53 PM
Apple, when it wants to, can seem incredibly arrogant. This is one of those times. SD and ExpressCard aren’t comparable. In dropping ExpressCard they effectively drop support for any external hardware that needs bus access to function.
I suppose SxS can live on with the existing SxS-SD hybrids, but that’s little consolation to P2 or other technologies that need to leverage the PCIexpress interface offered by ExpressCard.
Posted by Dylan Reeve on 06/08 at 03:13 PM
I have been a proud Mac owner for more than half of my life, that’s 13 years now. Honestly, I have converted so many PC users in my Mac career ... but Apple is making the life of filmmakers and other professionals consistently harder and harder.
They have been neglecting video professionals for some time now: No Firewire on MacBooks, glossy screens, no Blu-ray support in hardware or software (by the way: still no Blu-ray support for Snow Leopard, no Final Cut Studio update), and now this:
The ExpressCard slot is essential for every filmmaker nowadays. If you don’t use or own an EX1 or EX3 or any card adapter, it is still essential to use with all the new AJA and Matrox kit that was just announced at NAB.
I think this poll is great, but we really should make ourselves heard via the Apple feedback page: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html
Maybe we should write up a sample letter which we could all copy and send in to Apple. It’d be even better if anyone would write a letter, but I think it’s easier to get a lot of feedback if people can just copy/paste - we’re all in the same boat and all have more or less the same feelings about this at last.
What do you think?
Posted by Nino on 06/08 at 03:30 PM
Somewhat of an overly bold headline methinks…
Considering there’s a whole range of express card enabled laptops that run windows out there.
But certainly the point stands about apple being a bit too premature in pulling the plug on express card slots. I mean how hard is it to use a usb to SDHC card adapter? They even come with the cards these days! However high-speed access to the bus is something a lot harder to come by.
Everyone made a fuss when they got rid of firewire on the macbook, and they brought it back. Maybe this will happen again with express card?
Posted by John Burkhart on 06/08 at 05:57 PM
“Somewhat of an overly bold headline methinks…”
I wasn’t being any more dramatic than the folks claiming that P2 was doomed for being based on PCMCIA, grin. I don’t think either SxS or P2 is doomed; I’m just bemused (again) at Apple’s capricious decisions regarding expansion slots.
“Everyone made a fuss when they got rid of firewire on the macbook, and they brought it back. Maybe this will happen again with express card?”
The petition / Apple feedback ideas would be ways to make the fuss known (especially Apple feedback; it’s unclear that petitions have much effect). But bear in mind that the 17” still has an ExpressCard34 slot; it ain’t the end of the world. Just yet.
Posted by Adam Wilt on 06/08 at 06:07 PM
My first thoughts were that SxS is doomed. However I have to admit I did like seeing Apple sticking with FireWire and I do think SD Media is the way to go….
I can’t figure out why Apple has varied the I/O so much on their laptops in such a short period of time. You can read my post about it at http://bit.ly/hDuPG
....brad….
Posted by Brad Fortner on 06/08 at 08:31 PM
Adam, this is truly unbelievable.
All feedback sent back to apple, via all channels possible, inc. personal contacts, might do something. It is worth a try. I really don’t want the 17”. It’s too big. Various bags of mine are for 15” only. Seems like i’ll be waiting longer than i thought for that upgrade…
Posted by Snow on 06/09 at 07:04 AM
I also sent feedback to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) and .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) - I know it’s not Steve Jobs who’s reading these mails, but maybe somebody higher up in the management chain.
Posted by Nino on 06/09 at 07:31 AM
I do not find this particularly surprising and I wouldn’t be that surprised if this is more and more the case as Apple becomes more popular among consumers since more people buying computers have point and shoot cameras or phones with SD cards than have SxS cards or other Expresscard devices. The average computer/mac user has no idea what that little slot on his laptop is for and why they wouldnt just use a slot that his camera memory card will fit in.
Fortunately they are hardly the only other company making laptop computers, and plenty of other laptop makers still have expansion slots. I use a Lenovo T400 14” laptop that has two hard drives for data security and speed and has both PC Card and Expresscard slots, and it is smaller and costs less than half the price of a Macbook Pro with otherwise equivalent specs. Kind of a no-brainer if you use solid state recording media like P2 and SxS frequently or just want to have the option of using multiple devices that use a high-speed bus.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/09 at 12:50 PM
The problem is using other hardware means saying goodbye to Apple software. Final Cut Studio is practically standard in so many places I am working. They screw up the hardware and they could lose a lot more…
Posted by Philip Bloom on 06/09 at 01:21 PM
Most of the data wrangling I do still ends up in FCP, but a non-apple laptop still seems like the best tool for the job, especially with all of the software available for windows. The copy-handler/CRC checking software and P2 playback software I use is only available for windows as well, and I have not yet found a good OSX equivalent.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/09 at 03:17 PM
Noahyv, we shouldn’t be talking about alternatives right now. To many of us, there is no real alternative to a Mac. We just want a MacBook 15” with an ExpressCard slot (and non-glossy screen, while we’re at it).
I agree with Philip that it’s the software that really defines the experience of using a Mac. Apple’s hardware is nice and stylish, but their success is mostly based on the ingenious software (just look at the iPhone) and they way it interacts with their hardware.
Also, we want to stick with Final Cut Pro, which is not available for Windows.
The real point is that we don’t want to use Windows machines. For nothing. But Apple is making it really hard for professionals in these times. No wonder more and more people resort to “hackintoshes”, which are still a pain to use due to all the incompatibilities, but seem more and more like a viable option with every half-baked hardware update Apple churns out.
Posted by Nino on 06/09 at 03:53 PM
Remember that MacBook Pros are the only high end laptops Apple offers, meaning they must cater to everyone who needs a high-end machine, be they video pros, photographers, gamers, or just consumers who want a larger screen.
The gamers and consumers who want larger screens love glossy displays but video and photo pros hate them.
The photographers love SD cards but video pros hate them.
Apple is trying to appeal to too many groups at once with one product offering - that’s the issue here.
What they should do is diversify the consumer MacBook range to include machines with larger displays and offer SD cards as a BTO option on the MacBook Pros. That way you’d start out with a versatile ExpressCard slot and if you decided you didn’t need that versatility and just wanted the convenience of an SD card, you could take that option. Everyone’s happy then.
Posted by Jon Chappell on 06/10 at 05:05 AM
I too was shocked too see that Apple removed the ExpressCard slot. For those using Sony SxS , you’re still in luck with the new 13 & 15” and the SD slot. Take a look at the new MxM adapter (mxmexpress.com/) which allows you to use SDHC memory cards in the Sony XDCAM EX1 & EX3 (with recent firmware) camera. With 32GB memory cards hitting around 130.00 , this might be a workable solution for some (works great with AfterEffects & PremierePro). Keep in mind that most 32GB cards don’t work in the MxM adapter, only the Transcend 32GB cards appear to format. Most 16GB & 8GB cards have been fine for me. It’s worth a look. Now if we can just get a similar solution for P2.
Posted by dhelmly aka DavTechTable on 06/10 at 01:19 PM
Sure, we’re in luck, as long as we don’t need to overcrank, grin… and as long as we don’t want to use a Matrox MX02, AJA IO Express (or an IO HD and a FireWire drive at the same time), CalDigit RAID, the eSATA drives I carry around for location offloading, or anything else in video IO or high-speed storage requiring internal-bus-level speed and expandability.
And those of us shooting CF cards (Nikon D300 and RED ONE in my case) who were eyeing ExpressCard34 readers are now thrown back on FireWire800 readers, which again need to share the FW bus with FW drives.
It used to be that the “Pro” designation on a Mac was meaningful. No longer, it seems (he said, sitting on the 3rd floor of Moscone West at WWDC, typing on a MacBook Air, which doesn’t even have FireWire! But then, I’m not at WWCD to edit video…). When the “Pro” machines lack the expandability and configurability that set them apart from the plain ol’ MacBooks, what’s the point of the label?
Grumble, grumble,
Grumpy Adam who only had four hours of sleep, but based on a brief survey of Mac-oriented websites, he ain’t the only grumpy one!
Posted by Adam Wilt on 06/10 at 01:34 PM
Adam,
You make a really good point. A computer is not really a computer if it can’t be expanded. The concept goes all the way back to ENIAC.
The loss of the SxS port kills the Mac Pro’s ability to directly expand the computer, at least in the traditional sense.
Hmmm.. I wonder if anyone in Apple Marketing could (or would care to) explain that… It would seem to me that a non expandable Mac Pro is really an Appliance…
You’re not Grumpy Adam… You have it right….
....brad….
http://www.bradfortner.com
Posted by Brad Fortner on 06/10 at 02:01 PM
“And those of us shooting CF cards (Nikon D300 and RED ONE in my case) who were eyeing ExpressCard34 readers are now thrown back on FireWire800 readers, which again need to share the FW bus with FW drives.”
That was also somewhat confusing to me, don’t most “PRO” DSLR’s use compact flash? Wouldn’t that make more sense than SDHC?
Of course Apple most likely knows the demographic of MacBookPro users much more accurately than us. Maybe the problem is that there are not enough “pros” out there buying these, and that we’ve been greatly eclipsed by more casual users.
Posted by John Burkhart on 06/10 at 02:19 PM
absolutely. ALL pro DSLRs use Compact Flash. Only the consumer cams use SDHC. oh, it’s that word Pro again…
sure there are more casual users but how come Sony and other PC manufacturers can make a laptop that pleases both without alienating one?
Posted by Philip Bloom on 06/10 at 02:22 PM
As usual, Apple will argue that they would have to produce special molds in order to be able to produce ExpressCard versions of the new MacBook Pros (they can’t use the old molds due to the difference in case design with the integrated battery).
Therefore, a BTO option is not possible - because it wouldn’t really be build-to-order but have to be a different laptop altogether.
They could sell an ExpressCard version like other PC manufacturers, but this would be a very unlikely “standard Apple procedure”. (The last bits of specialised hardware like the Apple’s editors’ keyboard already disappeared some time ago.)
Posted by Nino on 06/10 at 04:56 PM
You can always add a fast USB SD card reader, to add SD cards to your Macbook. Small, weightless and cheap.
Can anyone show me now, how to add an Express34 Slot? eSATA? More FW800 ports? Anyone ?
Posted by Snow on 06/11 at 02:20 AM
If you use SxS you can use the $250 Sony Card Reader to add that functionality to the new Macbook Pros.
I would expect that Panasonic would be coming out with something similar soon as well.
I travel all the time overseas and am happy to be lugging a 15” instead of a 17” Macbook Pro. In fact, I wish that I could use a 13” just to save weight. I shoot SxS when I travel so I can use the card reader, though it is much faster to use the SxS slot than USB.
Maybe Apple figured that most pro video guys would be using the 17” Macbook Pros.
This move hurts the Panasonic guys more than the Sony ones in the long run. I shoot with both so who knows what will happen when my Macbook Pro is due to be upgraded the end of next year. I feel bad for anyone who is needing to upgrade now.
Daniel Weber
Posted by Daniel Weber on 06/11 at 06:50 AM
No skin off my back, I’ve never owned an Apple and never will.
Like Phil said, Apple is “incredibly arrogant.” That pretty well says it all. They think they’re at the center of the universe.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/12 at 09:42 AM
I really didn’t say that, especially taking it out of context. Apple make the best hardware in my opinion and I would struggle to cope without them. I just want them to understand why us Pros need a 15” with express port.
Posted by Philip Bloom on 06/12 at 09:45 AM
Sorry, I attributed the quote to Phil Bloom. It was Dylan Reeve.
My bad!
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/12 at 09:45 AM
phew, thought i was going mad, not remembering what I had written!
Posted by Philip Bloom on 06/12 at 09:51 AM
This is complete bull-dookie.
I travel constantly and adding another adapter or 2 more inches of laptop to my kit is a serious pain in the rear.
One of the two main reasons I went with Sony over Panasonic was the SxS Express slot convenience.
The other reason? Phillip Bloom.
So don’t you go screwin’ us over next Bloominator.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/13 at 09:53 AM
More debate on “the Pro” in a MacBook Pro. Seems new MacBook Pro’s are limited to 1.5Gb/s SATA-I rather than SATA-II. http://bit.ly/9yYLQ
Posted by Brad Fortner on 06/15 at 08:43 AM
It’s pretty clear that Apple dropping “computer” from their name was not just to use less ink. They’ve been behind the curve with the hardware for many years. Amazingly now offering an SDHC slot, but specifically making not compatible with I/O devices so it _can’t_ be used to expand the computer.
There were times, when Apple didn’t have today’s market share, that they struggled to produce computers that were affordable, and wildly expandable. That gave us the G3, the G4 towers. It gave us the G3 series PowerBooks with dual media bays, in addition to the PC Card slot.
Now the focus is clearly fit & finish. They’ve become B&O;while nobody was paying attention. The one machine that you _can_ expand costs a fortune, is too big to fit into anything, and doesn’t even come with Blu-ray data burning as an option.
Desktops? Mini or iMac. None expandable. None made for pros.
Laptops? There used to be a consumer iBook line separate (mostly) from the PowerBook line. Now, aside from one leftover plastic MacBook that exists solely as a price toehold, it’s all about polish and design ethos. Want a mouse button? Fugetaboutit.
As someone who edits ProRez 1080i60 on a MacBook with the power offered through the ExpressCard slot (you just can’t do it reliably over FW-800) for shows that are destined for PBS, it’s clear to me that I’ll likely be transferring my Adobe Creative Suite license to PC with my next machine and getting a rack mountable, quad-core, HD churning machine for probably 1/2 a stock MacPro.
Adding the SD card was something they should have done years ago, like most every laptop AND desktop PC. If Apple really wanted to make a laptop Pro, they’d add a _second_ ExpressCard slot. And go back to a Matte screen- or give the glossy one a good optical coating to cut glare. But they don’t bother. Why should they? The momentum is in their favor.
Apple genuinely won each convert to their Pro suite over the years. But, the last few versions have demonstrated development through purchasing other companies, not through any great innovation at Apple. For instance, you can’t actually edit true 4k RED footage in FCP- the program can’t handle frames with pixel dimensions that high. And how long has RED been doing 4k?
Falling behind the technology curve like that lets other companies move ahead and, in this dog-eat-dog business, Apple will lose those pros back to the tools they came from.
Posted by IEBA on 06/19 at 08:21 PM
Has any company introduced an adapter for p2 card for hvx200 that would allow cf cards to be inserted into adapter. I currently use firestore fs100 and a couple of 16 gig p2 cards for shorter gigs. When using firestore fs100 in hand held I get far too many disconnections which is totally unaccepatble for a pro. I even tape the scsi cable to the camera and use right angle scsi cables which helps a bit but not enough. Overall quite dissapointed with disconnect problems when using firestore. any other brainwaves from fellow HVX’ers call me at 800-853-8145 with ideas please. Thanks Alan
Posted by alan gough on 04/04 at 10:10 PM
