We at Meets The Eye have been discussing frame rates today, triggered by the article at http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm. We’d like to use frame rate as a creative control, not as overcranking or undercranking, but as a presentation tool to affect mood and perception. None of us are particularly enamored of 24 fps, and Tim Blackmore was feeling frustrated enough by it and its persistence as a baseline for production and distribution that he composed the following:
(Oh, and it’s © 2008 by Tim Blackmore. Pass it on, but give the guy credit if you do!)
I just went to a film festival with a number of entries shot in 24p, 30p and 60i on a big screen. The 60i were by far the most unwatchable to me because of handheld work. Some did obviously have OIS on but it really did not help that much on a large screen and despite the efforts of skilled camera op, jiggly 60i hand held is much more blatant for nausea inducement that panning motion judder.
Motion judder from 24p was almost never a problem though most projects had 3:2 pulldown.
24fps haters are old news. It pops up periodically from technical engineer types. I hear almost no creators of narrative work clamoring for an end to 24p. In fact, almost all I hear from people who create narrative work is the bemoaning the lack of 24fps.
24fps is a better frame rate for narrative work. Here’s why - enormous amounts of big screen narrative work rely on handheld work for kinetic power - from action/Bourne movies to Cassavetes dramas. This stuff would look like crap, especially on large screen shot at 60fps - do you really want that? And just think of IMAX shot at 60fps if you every tried to handhold or even steadicam a shot - a really nightmare on a 90ft screen.
60fps is great for live events and sports but I would not be suprised to see 30p for IMAX live events to camera issues. To quote Stephen Colbert - “The Market has spoken”.
Posted by stephen v2 on 11/24 at 08:58 AM
Seriously, it’s time to make a concerted effort to have everyone in the industry “get over” 24p.
We ranted last month about our readers unabashed slavery to 24p here:
http://videomaker.com/community/blogs/videonews/tag/24p/
Posted by John Burkhart on 11/24 at 09:09 AM
24 fps will remain the standard for one simple word. Appeal. All other frame rates besides overcranked slo-motion are unnappealing. Appeal has nothing to do with technical issues of judder or hand held or what the 60i people think is learned through only observing 24 fps material. Look at the footage and watch peoples reaction, it is so overwhelmingly obvious. I show clients 60i and they say “it looks good”. I show the same client the footage shot in 24p and the say “it’s amazing what did you do?”
Posted by on 11/24 at 09:47 AM
John,
Your post on Videomaker is based on a faulty premise - 60fps is not better for motion picture image is all areas, only one small area. It’s only better for reducing judder on pans. For large screen, it’s much poorer than 30fps or 24fps for handheld, vibrating or any other kinetic camera work because of frame rate and shutter speed issues.
60fps also takes more computing power and storage to process and render in post (which means both more time and more money), harder and lower quality to compress for blu-ray, dvd, online etc.
In other words, for one con “motion judder on pans” you get a number of strong technical advantages.
The narrative beauty of 24fps is pure gravy.
All of you 24fps haters need to research audience reaction, technical problems and expenses with Showscan’s failure. The same fundamentals apply today and I don’t see a future where they won’t apply.
Posted by stephen v2 on 11/24 at 11:11 AM
Steven,
Thanks for your reply, but the temporal resolution of 60p is better than 24p in all instances. I think that you may be referencing motion blur (frame rate and shutter speed issues) as helping to mask erratic movement in the frame, but you can adjust the shutter in 60p as well.
While your argument that 60p takes more resources than 24p is correct. HD takes more resources than SD, but no one is saying we should go back to SD are they?
But again the main argument from 24p proponents seems to be that 24p looks better because 24p looks better, which is a tautology.
There’s not a lot of us 24p haters out there, we’re clearly in the minority, which is why I feel the need to speak loudly 
BTW: I loved Showscan!
Posted by John Burkhart on 11/24 at 11:44 AM
In a visual field like video and film, if something looks better, it is better. That is not redundant language but speaks to the truth of what is appealing to the visual system in humans. You can speak loudly but your followers will be a group of contrary techies. Good luck with the argument.
Posted by on 11/24 at 11:55 AM
John,
Again, temporal resolution does not mean “easier to watch” - 60fps means realistic/accurate motion, but often, that produces unpleasant viewing. You are making a error in logic by building your argument that because something is technically better, it is more watchable. Handheld camera work is less watchable at 60fps than 24p (unless the strobing/judder issue in pans). This is especially true on larger screens. And painfully true on IMAX sized screen.
Again, are you arguing that the Bourne Ultimatum and Woman Under an Influence would be better films at 60fps than 24fps? If so, I would like to see some empirical data that this so. And explain is exactly why those films (or for that matter any film, would look better at 60fps).
Or, list narrative works distributed in 60i that is a critical, broadcast or box office winner.
Because ultimately, all this tech stuff means zero - it’s about telling stories. So tell us why 60fps is better for telling stories, fiction or non-fiction, than 24fps.
PS. You may have loved Showscan as a technology, but what great film of the last 40 years would have wanted to see does as Showscan 60fps?
Posted by stephen v2 on 11/24 at 02:00 PM
Let me add my voice to the growing group of creative narrative types that hate 24p. I have tried it, and I don’t like it. I get more nausea from 24p jitter than I ever did from shaky cinema vérité in 30i or 60p. I get paid for making video that draws you into the frightening realism of the situation and making you understand it as if you were there. 24p is too “fairytale” for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBU9AOcIxDg
Posted by DanConklin on 11/26 at 07:38 AM
