ProVideo Coalition.com: Themed Channel | Editing & Post by Patrick Inhofer: HP’s DreamColor: A PVM CRT Replacement?

I’m a colorist and finisher for broadcast, indie, and documentary filmmakers. I recently decided to evaluate the HP DreamColor as a replacement for a trusted CRT Sony PVM-20L5 I’ve been using for many years. The Sony CRT is at the end of its useful life. The question I asked myself and which this article answers: Is the DreamColor an acceptable replacement for the PVM- series of CRTs?

About the DreamColor

The HP DreamColor LP2480zx LCD display has received quite a bit of attention since its release in 2008. For a full overview of this LCD, check out Allan Tépper’s excellent article on PVC’s website.

Required Reading

PVC’s own Allan Tépper has the absolute best articles on the monitoring requirements for the DreamColor’s Color Engine, including this foundational article:

If you want to get ANY of the results I’m seeing, you MUST use one of the products Allen outlines in these two articles. The DreamColor requires a very specific signal feeding it and he covers the why and how of it:

About PVM and BVM CRTs

The PVM-20 series of CRT displays has been a real post-production workhorse for nearly a decade; PVM’s offered the same ‘look’ of Sony’s higher-end BVM- series CRTs, with 800 lines of resolution, multi-format / multi-frame rate support on the component inputs, SMPTE-C phosphors, and optional SDI / HD-SDI inputs.

Images color graded on a properly calibrated PVM translated very nicely to the BVM series of high-end Class 1 CRTs. And given that a 20-inch BVM cost $20,000 more than a 20-inch PVM (about $4,000 with an optional SD-SDI card), the PVM’s were a great choice for anyone wanting to serve the middle market.

As a colorist, the difference between the PVMs and BVMs are interesting. The BVMs I’ve worked on have always been calibrated using some sort of external probe. If your facility can drop $25,000 (and more) on a CRT, they’d be nuts not to regularly do a calibration. PVMs usually have an internal Auto calibration mode, which is usually very effective but rely on the pluge in Color Bars for the user to set the brightness by eye.

It’s very typical for PVMs to run brighter than their BVM counterparts. Sometimes, much brighter.

When I’ve moved between the two classes of monitors my reaction usually ran like this:

Take note of those ‘Hour 1’ reactions. They’re very much like what I’ve been reading around the various forums when people move to the DreamColor from the PVMs they’re thinking of replacing. At the end of this article I’ll be coming back to this phenomenon since I have some strong opinions on this…

Beyond the CRT

CRTs are dead (or dying). Production ended two years ago. Replacement tubes are hard to come by and expensive to swap out. So given the demise of the trusted CRT, what’s a colorist (or anyone interested in properly displaying the visual ‘creative intent’ of their clients) to do?

Shadow detail is where flat panels of all types (and most projectors) tend to fail. The last 10% of shadow detail tends to flatten out. This flattening hides from the colorist flaws they may wish to suppress or detail they may wish to pull out.

In my view, I want to replace the CRT with a flat panel that, after color grading on the panel for days on end - I can watch the CRT and not be surprised by detail I never saw.

Similarly I want to replace my CRT with a flat panel that has a similar price-to-performance ratio of the trusty PVMs. The most important specs that any PVM- replacement must exhibit:

Is it a surprise then that an HP DreamColor, which matches all the above criteria, is on everyone’s list of panels they’d love to evaluate in their room?

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Great thoughts, Patrick. I’m curious, how does something like the Matrox MXO fit into this? Would there be any advantage to using it with a DreamColor?

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/28 at 04:49 PM

Zak,

Thanks for your question.

I tend to stick with Decklink or Kona SDI cards, so I’m not very familiar with the MXO product line. However, it seems Allan Tépper already covered this base in an article on the MXO and DreamColor earlier this year.

No one can say the PVC doesn’t have the DreamColor thoroughly covered!

- patrick

Posted by Patrick Inhofer on 06/28 at 07:31 PM

Zak,

If you have read my four main DreamColor articles (of which Patrick has linked three in his article and the fourth in his first response to your question), then you already know that it is absolutely necessary to have some professional interface between your Mac and your DreamColor if you are using Apple software, like FCP or Color. The original MXO is really the only possible pro interface to use for that purpose if you are using a Mac that has no PCIe or ExpressCard34 slot. However, if you are using a Mac that does have either of those slots, then you are much better served with an MXO2 series interface box (as indicated in one of my charts), especially one with the MAX option factory installed inside. You will spend less and get much more.

Allan Tépper

Posted by Allan Tépper on 06/29 at 07:35 AM

Thanks for your pro insights in this review!

Interesting re the limitation of calibrating only when it’s connected to the graphics card.

I’ve been considering adopting this monitor but specifically to connect to an MXO2 device. My reasons are numerous and will be obvious to some and are generally outlined in my comments to Allan’s reviews on the monitor.

Along with the various selling points of the MXO2 solution, Matrox, as of NAB, has begun positioning it as an alternative to Nvidia’s Cuda GPU acceleration of CS5’s Mercury Engine.

Given that possibility, I was hopeful that the expense of a fancy graphic card to power Mercury was no longer required. If one can only calibrate Dreamcolor if connected to graphics card, it begs a couple of questions:

What card did you use?

I assume the fancier the better to properly calibrate. And yet, I’m puzzled about the fact that the Dreamcolor engine requires an RGB signal to operate properly and yet can be calibrated via a connection to a graphics card that doesn’t supply an RGB signal (none do as far as I know)

Thanks.

wsmith

Posted by wsmith on 06/29 at 08:59 AM

WSMith,

Graphic cards (whether they have VGA or DVI outputs) are by definition RGB. DisplayPort and miniDisplayPort could be either RGB or YUV, but so far have been RGB.

Allan Tépper

Posted by Allan Tépper on 06/29 at 09:07 AM

WSmith,

What Allan said!

It did occur to me this morning (while showering) that I could have tried running the LCD as an extended desktop via the Kona card. That might have worked and solved that one issue!

I don’t have the DreamColor in-house anymore. But when I do get one again, it’s the first thing I’m going to test.

My graphics card: ATI Radeon HD 3870

- patrick

Posted by Patrick Inhofer on 06/29 at 09:14 AM

Thanks Allan,

Yes of course, I somehow forgot that fact. (And they all output a progressive signal too).

This makes me wonder why an Nvidia Cuda card (required for accelerating MXO2) cannot be used to drive the Dreamcolor engine.

Of course it would need to have two output connections: one for the computer monitor and one for the external monitor. The Nvidia Quadro FX (also accelerates Mercury) has 2 outputs.

I guess I need to go back to your articles to refresh my memory but am I missing something on that?: Can we not use a Nvidia Quadro to power the Dreamcolor engine?

Thanks,

wsmith

Posted by wsmith on 06/29 at 09:35 AM

WSmith,

You can’t because (as I have covered in many articles) Apple’s realtime software conversion from YUV to RGB is not to be trusted for critical evaluation, as Apple has stated in Apple’s own bulletin.

Allan Tépper

Posted by Allan Tépper on 06/29 at 09:40 AM

WSMith,

Regarding calibration, the LP2480zx DreamColor display has a built-in 10-bit pattern generator and that generator is used to create the color patches used during the calibration process.

Only after calibration do we switch to the graphics card output to perform validation using patches generated by the graphics card.

Also, as Allan mentioned, every computer graphics card outputs RGB signals. Some graphics cards can also output YCbCr signals - typically via an HDMI connection - but they can always output RGB. Indeed, the vast majority of computer displays sold today can only accept an RGB signal.

Best,
-greg

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/29 at 09:48 AM

Hi Allan,

I’m on Windows, not Mac.

(All the better with respect to updating the monitor’s firmware too, apparently…)

So for Windows users, what about using an Nvidia Cuda card to power the Dreacolor engine?

Thanks,

wsmith

Posted by wsmith on 06/29 at 10:09 AM

wsmith:

I’m assuming you mean an NVIDIA workstation graphics card (the Quadro line)? They work perfectly and I’d bet that at least 80% of all LP2480zx DreamColor displays in use are connected to these types of cards.

Regarding using Cuda to power the DreamColor engine, the engine is internal to the display so it would not be possible to drive it externally.

Best,
-greg

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/29 at 10:15 AM

FYI: On Nvidia’s site I see the PDF below which in the 2nd sentence of 2nd paragraph of the intro, it specifically refers to the Dreamcolor.

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/40049/TB-04701-001_v02_new.pdf

Posted by wsmith on 06/29 at 10:23 AM

WSmith,

I might have not been clear - once the calibration is done, the DreamColor doesn’t need the graphics card on the host computer. CUDA doesn’t come into play at all.

The DreamColor Engine is an on-board processor and the display handles it independently. A good thing, since it doesn’t eat up other processing cycles.

If you take a look at the links about the various ways to properly feed the DreamColor - Allan identifies which gear also work on in a PC pipeline.

Posted by Patrick Inhofer on 06/29 at 10:24 AM

Thanks Greg,

yes, understood re the Dreamcolor engine being internal to the monitor. And that it just needs a 10 bit, true progressive, RGB signal to work.

The Nvidia PDF apparently states (haven’t read all the details yet) that it outputs sRGB and Adobe RGB.

What can you say about those in terms of closeness to Rec 7009? I think I heard somewhere that one of those actually slightly exceeds Rec 709.

I’m a bit unclear on my RGBs (my external Sony LMD 2030W supports Rec 709 so I’ve just relied on that and I haven’t yet dabbled in serious color correction)

So how does sRGB or Adobe RGB fit into a Rec 709 monitor?

Thanks

wsmith

Posted by wsmith on 06/29 at 10:31 AM

Hi Patrick,

I pored over all of Allan’s prior articles with great interest and closeness when published and
I think I understand all his points.

I understand your point re calibration and via a graphics card but all of this still leads me to wonder why a Quadro cannot be used to drive to Dreamcolor operationally, not just for calibration?

Aside from the sRGB and the Adobe RGB output to the monitor.

Thanks,

wsmith

Posted by wsmith on 06/29 at 10:36 AM

Hi wsmith,

An NVIDIA graphics card can output virtually any color space required. Indeed, since we aren’t applying a LUT (lookup table) in the graphics card, it really doesn’t even care what color space is used in most cases.

Regarding the Rec. 709 color space, the primaries and white point are identical to the sRGB color space. AdobeRGB has a wider green primary and isn’t really relevant for television/film production work.

Best,
-greg

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 06/29 at 10:39 AM

WSmith,

Ah, I understand now:
“why a Quadro cannot be used to drive to Dreamcolor operationally, not just for calibration?”

I suppose you could. I know on a Mac, when driving a monitor from the graphics card the operating system’s color management system can’t apply two different profiles to two outputs on the same card. So I couldn’t apply one setting to the DreamColor and another setting to the second output which is calibrated to look like the DreamColor.

I don’t know if this is a limitation on the PC side. But even if it did, just so long you use the DreamColor as your reference monitor then you’re fine.

And the Quadro is passing through a 30bit signal, so that aspect of it works.

Greg or Allan, any reason why you couldn’t use the on-board graphics card to drive the monitor as wsmith is wondering?

- patrick

Posted by Patrick Inhofer on 06/29 at 10:54 AM

Patrick and WSmith,

The reason is for what I just wrote above. It depends upon the software, and is the topic of an article I am writing now. Stay tuned!

Allan Tépper

Posted by Allan Tépper on 06/29 at 11:10 AM

Great! Looking forward to it!

Thanks,

wsmith

Posted by wsmith on 06/29 at 11:18 AM

“I know on a Mac, when driving a monitor from the graphics card the operating system’s color management system can’t apply two different profiles to two outputs on the same card.”

That doesn’t apply for all Macs. I drive an HP L2335 as a 2nd monitor from both my 15” MBP (ATI Radeon x1600, OS X 10.5.8) and from my 2009 mini (nVidia 9400, OS X 10.6.3; primary display is a Sony S204) and I have no problem bringing up different profiles on both displays simultaneously and matching them as closely as their panels and backlights allow. The same was true when, instead of the mini, I had a PowerMac G5 with a Radeon card, and when I had the Dreamcolor at home, I was able to obtain a fairly good match with the other displays (though the Dreamcolor was and is clearly superior to the others), and this required radically different color profiles to be assigned to the two different output ports on the same GPU.

At work we have MacPros with ATI 4870 GPUs and OS X 10.5.8. On those machines, too, I’ve had no problem running different calibrations on two different displays.

Posted by Adam Wilt on 06/30 at 06:06 PM

Adam

I’m always happy to be corrected by you.

Thanks for the clarification!

- patrick

Posted by Patrick Inhofer on 06/30 at 06:49 PM

Hi Adam.

You’re absolutely correct. If you have an ATI graphics card you can apply separate output LUTs to each connected display. But, if you are using a current (or previous) generation NVIDIA graphics card you cannot. This is a limitation in the current NVIDIA architecture.

Note that if you are using an NVIDIA graphics card, the output LUT specified for the PRIMARY display will be applied to both displays connected to that card. The only way around this limitation is to use more than one NVIDIA graphics card (or to use an ATI graphics card, but that is not always an option).

Best,
-greg

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 07/01 at 07:51 AM

Hi Greg,

Surely that’s not a blanket limitation on all NVIDIA GPUs. My mini uses the NVIDIA GeForce 9400, and I have no trouble running different color profiles on my two different monitors.

Posted by Adam Wilt on 07/01 at 10:10 AM

Hi Adam.

I’ve primarily tested the Quadro FX line of graphics cards and it is a limitation on those. I’ve not tested the 9400 on the mini. Good to hear that it works on that one.

-greg

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 07/01 at 10:19 AM

Good to know about that limitation on the Quadros; we may be upgrading one or two workstations with them… fortunately we have dual Dreamcolors on them so the question of matching dissimilar monitors won’t come up (grin).

Posted by Adam Wilt on 07/01 at 10:39 AM

As promised, here is the article called: Does Premiere CS5 achieve the “impossible dream” for critical evaluation monitoring?

Allan Tépper

Posted by Allan Tépper on 07/02 at 07:15 AM

Its really lovely and i just would like to thanks to all Sony team members who really does creative works

Posted by MoviesBlaster on 07/10 at 03:55 PM

We got a Dreamcolor and the Advanced Profiling Solution. Unfortunately the X-rite is not seen by the software (but it is shown in the system profiler), so I can’t activate the program.
The HP hotline here is a bad joke.
Any idea what we can do?

TIA,

Uli

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 07/14 at 02:30 PM

You don’t say what platform you’re on, or which version of APS you’re running, so it’s hard to know what to say.

I’ve run APS 1.0.2 and 1.1.0 for Mac on various OS X versions across four machines in the past year, without problems. I’ve had the X-rite probe plugged into the Mac itself, or into the hub on the display; both have worked. (But if you’re not able to see the probe with the software, try a different USB port.)

When we’ve had problems (we have 1st-gen Dreamcolors, and we’re currently working through a variety of issues with them), I’ve had to spend an hour on the phone with first-level support just to get enough of a trouble ticket into the system to get a callback from incredibly helpful tech support folks in Ft. Collins. Once you get the real support folks online, they’re very, very good about solving (or at least attempting to solve) your problem.

This matches my experience with an older HP LP2335 display; initial problems were met with complete and total support from HP, once you can get past the first-line telephone-answering folks.

Posted by Adam Wilt on 07/14 at 04:55 PM

Hi Adam,

thanks for the info and sorry for not giving enough detail. Yes, it was under OS X 10.6.4 and APS was version 1.1 , tried two machines and different ports.

I’ll try to get past the first line of defense…

Best regards,

Uli

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 07/15 at 02:47 AM

It could also be a defective probe.

See if you can exchange it. MIght be quicker than fighting through their defenses!

And rather than fight through HP’s defenses, scroll up these comments to Greg Stanton and click on his name to send him an email… he IS the real HP DreamColor support guy that telephone support would be putting you in touch with.

- pi

Posted by Patrick Inhofer on 07/15 at 12:22 PM

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